Forums Afdelingen Zoek Personal  
  Je bent niet ingelogd.

Main Forum - Fora en oldskool users

   Topics
MF - TF - EF - UF
MeF - PF - BeF - CF
   Sales
   Brommers - Blok - Cilinder
   Overige Updates
FAQ - KB - Nieuws - Gallery
Links - Projecten
   Online Users
   Er zijn 125 users online.

Brommerforum.nl wordt gehost door:
Zeke Internet Services
  Main Forum - Topic #57213 - Fora en oldskool users
Pagina 1 van 22
Spring naar pagina: 1, 2, 3 ... 20, 21, 22Volgende pagina >
Dit topic is 70379 keer bekeken. Log in om te kunnen reageren op dit onderwerp.

Martijn II - Forum en Sales Moderator 14-6-2009 21:11 Print topicpost

Posts: 9841
Omdat er de laatste tijd enorm veel noobievragen zijn, die ook nog eens beantwoord worden door andere noobies die het heeeeeelemaal bij het verkeerde eind hebben post ik het volgende.

het is een flinke lap tekst, en ook nog engels (oeh oeh moeilijk huil huil), maar er staat perfect in omschreven hoe een forum op sociaal gebied werkt.

Als je dus fatsoenlijke informatie wilt hebben, moet je de goede vragen stellen anders kun je erop rekenen dat de mensen die de kennis bezitten (en er zijn genoeg mensen die hier kennis bezitten) lekker hun bek houden en jou de informatie niet geven, waardoor je het met informatie moet doen van andere noobies die maar wat uit hun nek zitten te blaten.




Omgaan met de oldschool users
(Of: hoe stel ik slimme vragen)

Introductie

In de brommerwereld hangen de antwoorden die je krijgt op een vraag meer af van hoe je je vraag stelt dan van hoe ingewikkeld het antwoord is. Dit topic zal je laten zien wat de beste manier is om een fatsoenlijk antwoord op je vrag te krijgen.

Omdat er veel mensen aan brommers sleutelen, kun je goede antwoorden krijgen van users met wat meer ervaring, zonder dat je de oldschool users lastig moet vallen. Dit is een goed iets, omdat de ervaren users iets toleranter zijn tegenover de nieuwe users. Maar als je hun behandeld als oldschool users maak je alsnog meer kans op een fatsoenlijk antwoord op je vraag!

Als eerste wat je moet begrijpen is dat alle mensen met veel technische kennis op dit forum houden van moeilijke problemen en goed doordachte vragen erover. Als dit niet zo zou zijn was er geen forum hier.
Als je een interessante vraag stelt, waar wij eens goed voor moeten gaan zitten zullen we je dankbaar zijn, goede vragen zijn een stimulans voor goede antwoorden. Goede vragen helpen brengen begrip bij ons op, en onthullen problemen die anders nooit opgevallen waren. Goede vraag en een groot compliment op een forum!

Ondanks dit, hebben wij oldschool mensen de reputatie dat we op simpele vragen een stom en arrogant antwoord geven. Soms lijkt het alsof we bot doen tegen nieuwe users, en ze negeren. Maar dat is niet helemaal waar.

Wat we werkelijk zijn (en dat is niet goed te praten), is vijandig naar mensen die te lui zijn om hun huiswerk te doen voordat ze een vraag stellen. Mensen die gewoon lui zijn, mensen die nemen zonder terug te geven, zij verdoen onze kostbare tijd, die we ook hadden kunnen spenderen aan mensen die wel moeite doen voor hun vraag, en dus ene antwoord waard zijn.

We begrijpen dat er veel mensen zijn die gewoon willen rijden met hun brommer, zonder zich te verdiepen in het technische gedeelte ervan. Voor de meeste mensen is hun brommer gewoon een vervoersmiddel, en ze hebben wel belangrijkere dingen te doen. We snappen dat, en we verwachten ook niet dat iedereen zich gaat verdiepen in het technische gebeuren van hun brommer. Desalniettemin is onze stijl van antwoorden afgestemd op mensen die dezelfde interesse in de techniek hebben als ons, en ook bereid zijn mee te helpen in de zoektocht naar een antwoord. Dit zal ooknooit veranderen. Dat is goed, want als dat zou veranderen zouden we minder effectief worden in de dingen waar we goed in zijn.

We zijn vrijwilligers, we maken tijd vrij uit onze drukke levens om vragen te beantwoorden, en zo nu en dan worden we ermee overspoeld. Dus we filteren wat we beantwoorden. Zo beantwoorden we geen vragen van luie mensen (zoals hierboven beschreven) om onze tijd efficienter te besteden aan mensen die onze informatie gebruiken, maar ook weer beschikbaar stellen aan de nieuwe users van later.

Als je deze houding misselijkmakend en arrogant vindt moet je je aannames onder de loep nemen

Jullie hoeven ons niet te aanbidden, in feite zouden de meeste van ons jullie graag als gelijken beschouwen, en jullie opnemen in onze cultuur, als je de moeite doet omdat mogelijk te maken natuurlijk. Maar het is simpelweg niet niet effecient of praktisch voor ons om mensen te helpen die zichzelf niet willen helpen. Het is OK om te negeren, het is niet OK om stom te zijn.

Dus, aangezien het niet nodig is om al technisch inzicht in je brommer te hebben om aandacht van ons te krijgen, het is wel nodig om een bepaalde houding aan te nemen; alert, observerend en deelnemend aan het oplossen van het probleem. Als je niet met deze vorm van discriminatie om kunt gaan, dan stellen we voor dat je je brommer verkoopt, en een fiets koopt in plaats van ons te vragen voor hulp.

als je beslist om naar ons toe te komen voor hulp, dan wil je niet een van de bovengenoemde luie mensen zijn, en er ook niet op lijken. De beste manier om snel een antwoord op je vraag te krijgen is door de vraag te stellen als een persoon met verstand en vertrouwen.

Voordat je een topic maakt

Voordat je een topic maakt doe je het volgende:

* Probeer het antwoord te vinden door deze website te doorzoeken
* Probeer het antwoord te vinden in de technische handleiding van je brommer, heb je die niet, dan koop er een!
* Probeer je antwoord te vinden in de FAQ of in de KB afdeling
* Probeer het antwoord te vinden door zelf te zoeken en experimenteren
* Probeer het anwoord te vinden door een ervaren kennis te vragen

Als je een topic maakt, zorg er dan voor dat je deze dingen eerst gedaan hebt, dat zorgt ervoor dat je niet overkomt als een luie zak die tijd van mensen verspilt. Beter nog: zet in je topic wat je geleerd hebt van de bovenstaande handelingen. We houden ervan om vragen te beantwoorden van mensen die hebben laten zien dat ze leren van de antwoorden.

Zoek! Dit kan je zomaar naar een topic leiden waar je antwoord al instaat. En zelfs als staat dat er niet helemaal, zet dan de link naar dat topic, en zet erbij ik heb dit topic gevonden, maar het lost mijn probleem niet helemaal op. Dit motiveert ons weer om je verder te helpen

Bereid je vraag voor. Denk het helemaal door. Overhaaste vragen krijgen overhaaste antwoorden, of helemaal geen antwoorden. De meer je laat zien dat je moeite hebt gestoken in het oplossen van het probleem, de meer kans je maakt op een goed antwoord.

Stel geen domme vragen. Als je een domme vraag stelt krijg je meestal een dom antwoord, en hoopt diegene die het antwoord geeft dat je leert van je fout, en de vraag volgende keer goed stelt.

Hoe te zoeken

Zoek met zoekwoorden die gerelateerd zijn aan je vraag, lees de topics die na het zoeken omhoog komen, pas je zoekwoorden aan, en kijk welke topics er dan omhoog komen. Herhaal dit een aantal keer totdat je naar jouw mening alle zoekwoorden van jouw probleem opgezocht hebt. Als je het antwoord op je vraag dan nog net niet gevonden hebt maak je een topic aan.

Kies je forum zorgvuldig.

Let goed op in welk forum je je vraag post. Je hebt grote kans dat je genegeerd word en afgeschilderd word als een tijdsverspilling als je:


* Je vraag post in het verkeerde forum.
* Een simpele vraag buiten het BeF post.
* Je vraag in meerdere fora zet.

veel van ons negeren nutteloze vragen om ervoor te zorgen dat we niet verzuipen in nutteloosheid. Sommige users worden op die manier onthouden als tijdsverspilling, dit wil je niet op je naam hebben staan!

Het laatste punt hierboven doet me ook weer ergens aan denken. Als je je vraag in meerder fora neerzet gaan wij hem niet beantwoorden. Puur om het feit dat er kans is dat ik een lap tekst aan het typen ben als antwoord, en dat iemand anders hetzelfde doet in een ander forum. Dit is tijdsverspilling, daar doen we niet aan en dus beantwoorden we je vraag helemaal niet.

Als je op het punt staat om een topic aan te maken, en je denkt dat een van ons het wel weet. Ga diegene dan niet inboxxen. Maak gewoon een topic aan, zodat iedereen mee kan lezen, en ga niet een persoon op zich gebruiken voor je antwoord.


When selecting a topic area verify your question is on-topic. Read some of the back traffic before posting so you'll get a feel for how things are done in that forum. Each topic area and its associated moderator has it's own style. In fact, it's a very good idea to do a keyword search for words relating to your problem before you post. It may find you an answer, and if not it will help you formulate a better question.

Don't shotgun-blast mulitple topic areas at once, that's a violations of the forum rules and it REALLY irritates us admins... Find the right location and post once.

Know what your topic is! One of the classic mistakes is asking questions about turbos in the N/A (non-turbo) section . If you don't understand why this is a blunder, you'd be best off not asking any questions at all until you get it.

In general, questions to a well-selected topic area are more likely to get quality answers than equivalent questions to the wrong one. There are multiple reasons for this. One is simply the size of the pool of potential respondents. Another is the size of the audience; a guy who specializes in helping on turbo cars would rather answer questions in the turbo forum. He may not even read the N/A forum.

Understandably, knowlegable members are already receiving more than their fair share of mis-targeted messages. We get PM's all thet time. By adding to the flood, you could in extreme cases even be the straw that breaks the camel's back - quite a few times, knowlegable members withdrawn their support because collateral damage in the form of useless e-mail & PM traffic to their personal accounts became unbearable.

The MK3 Supra Reference/Tech-Tips forum often has your answer

Here's a link to it.

These are good first places to check, especially if you think you may have tripped over a relatively simple or common problem.

Also, it's worth mentioning that any question good enough to be asked of one person will also be of value to the whole group. Contrariwise, if you suspect your question is too dumb for public posting, it's not an excuse to harass individual members. However, if you are sure your question is non-trivial, and you get no answer in the the general forum for several days, try the asking a mod or admin to help you find someone who could help. We may just have missed it, or we might be able to point out why you aren't getting an answer. You also would be well advised to lurk there for a few days before posting to learn who people are and how they respond to questions.

If you cannot figure out if your post is on topic, go ahead and PM that specifict topic areas moderator or an Administrator. Also mention that you don't object to having your message forwarded to other people. (Many people [myself included] believe that private e-mail and PM's should remain private, even if there is nothing secret in it. By allowing your message to be forwarded you give your correspondent a choice about how to handle your message.)

Use meaningful, specific subject headers

On forums, the subject header is your golden opportunity to attract qualified experts' attention in 50 characters or less. Don't waste it on babble like "Please help me" (let alone "PLEASE HELP ME!!!!"; messages with subjects like that get discarded by reflex). Don't try to impress us with the depth of your anguish; use the space for a super-concise problem description instead.

One good convention for subject headers, used by many tech support organizations, is "object - deviation". The "object" part specifies what thing or group of things is having a problem, and the "deviation" part describes the deviation from expected behavior.

Stupid:
HELP!!!

Smart:
HKS SSQV doesn't blow off

Smarter:
HKS SSQV Blow-Off Valve doesn't blow off after hard pipe install

The process of writing an "object-deviation" description will help you organize your thinking about the problem in more detail. What is affected? Just the BOV or are other problems happening at the same time? Someone who sees a good subject line can immediately understand what it is that you are having a problem with and the problem you are having, at a glance.

More generally, look at the thread list in a forum. Note that just the subject lines are showing. Make your subject line reflect your question well enough that the next guy browsing the forum with a question similar to yours will be able to follow the thread to an answer rather than posting the question again.

Do not simply hit reply to a list message in order to start an entirely new thread. If you are going off in a different direction, search for a thread that applies to that subject. If you don't find it then post a new question. Changing the subject is not a good way to do things. Once a thread has a title it does not change even if you change the subject of your individual post. This makes it harder for people to find.

Make it easy to reply

Finishing your query with "Please send your reply to myemail@email.com" makes it quite unlikely you will get an answer. If you can't be bothered to take even the few seconds required to come back and check your thread, we can't be bothered to take even a few seconds to think about your problem. On forums, asking for a reply by e-mail is outright rude, unless you believe the information may be sensitive (and somebody will, for some unknown reason, let you but not the whole forum know it). If you want an e-mail copy when somebody replies in the thread use the "subscribe to this thread" option.

Write in clear, grammatical, correctly-spelled language

Most of us have found by experience that people who are careless and sloppy writers are usually (there are excptions) careless and sloppy at thinking and working on cars. Answering questions for careless and sloppy thinkers is not rewarding; we'd rather spend our time elsewhere.

So expressing your question clearly and well is important. If you can't be bothered to do that, we can't be bothered to pay attention. Spend the extra effort to polish your language. It doesn't have to be stiff or formal in fact, the car culture values informal, slangy and humorous language used with precision. But it has to be precise; there has to be some indication that you're thinking and paying attention.

Spell, punctuate, and capitalize correctly. Don't confuse "its" with "it's", "loose" with "lose", or "they're" with "there". Don't TYPE IN ALL CAPS; this is read as shouting and considered rude. (All lowercase is only slightly less annoying, as it's difficult to read.)

More generally, if you write like a semi-literate boob you will very likely be ignored. Writing like a l33t script kiddie hax0r or a gangsta from the ghetto is the absolute kiss of death with us and guarantees you will receive nothing but stony silence (or, at best, a heaping helping of scorn and sarcasm) in return.

If you are asking questions on our forum and English is not your native language, you will get a limited amount of slack for spelling and grammar errors - but no extra slack at all for laziness (and yes, we can usually spot that difference). Write in English. We will flush questions in languages that the bulk of our users don't understand, and English is the working language of the Internet. By writing in English you minimize your chances that your question will be discarded unread.

Post your question standard format

If you make your question artificially hard to read, it is more likely to be passed over in favor of one that isn't. So:

Do not abuse "smiley" and text formatting features. A smiley or two is usually OK, but colored fancy text tends to make people think you are lame. Seriously overusing smileys and color and fonts will make you come off like a giggly teenage girl, which is not generally a good idea unless you are more interested in sex than answers.

Be precise and informative about your problem

Describe the symptoms of your problem or project carefully and clearly.

Describe the car in which it occurs (1990 1JZ Swap). Provide your mod list (Turbonetics T-61, RC 550's, Greddy SP Exhaust, DDP)

Describe the research you did to try and understand the problem before you asked the question.

Describe the diagnostic steps you took to try and pin down the problem yourself before you asked the question.

Describe any possibly relevant recent changes to your car. After 10 posts and queries it's maddening to see "oh yea, I forgot to mention I swapped out the fuel pump the day before".

Do the best you can to anticipate the questions a people will ask, and answer them in advance in your request for help.

Volume is not precision

You need to be precise and informative. This end is not served by simply writing a long winded description of the date you were on, or what had for dinner into your help request. If you have a large, complicated situation, try to trim it and make it as small as possible.

This is useful for at least three reasons:

1. Being seen to invest effort in simplifying the question makes it more likely you'll get an answer
2. Simplifying the question makes it more likely you'll get a useful answer.
3. In the process of refining your post, you may develop a fix or workaround yourself.


Remember, 99 times out of 100 there are many other owners that are not experiencing your problem. (If your RC550 injectors aren't working for example) Otherwise you would have learned about it while reading the forum and searching the site (you did do that before complaining, didn't you?). This means that very probably it is you who are doing something wrong.

Grovelling is not a substitute for doing your homework

Some people who get that they shouldn't behave rudely or arrogantly and shouldn't be demanding an answer, retreat to the opposite extreme of grovelling. "I know I'm just a pathetic newbie loser, but...". This is distracting and unhelpful. It's especially annoying when it's coupled with vagueness about the actual problem.

Don't waste your time, or ours, on crude primate politics. Instead, present the background facts and your question as clearly as you can. That is a better way to position yourself than by grovelling.

Describe the problem's symptoms, not your guesses

If you don't know what the problem is, it's not altogether useful to tell people what you think is causing your problem. (If your diagnostic theories were such hot stuff, would you be consulting others for help?) So, make sure you're telling them the raw symptoms of what goes wrong, rather than your interpretations and theories. Let them do the interpretation and diagnosis. If you feel it's important to state your guess, clearly label it as such and describe why that answer isn't working for you.

Since the preceding point seems to be a tough one for many people to grasp, here's a phrase to remind you: "All diagnosticians are from Missouri." That US state's official motto is "Show me" (earned in 1899, when Congressman Willard D. Vandiver said "I come from a country that raises corn and cotton and cockleburs and Democrats, and frothy eloquence neither convinces nor satisfies me. I'm from Missouri. You've got to show me." In diagnosticians' case, it's not a matter of skepticism, but rather a literal, functional need to see whatever is as close as possible to the same raw evidence that you see, rather than your surmises and summaries. Show me!

Describe your problem's symptoms in chronological order

The clues most useful in figuring out something that went wrong often lie in the events immediately prior. So, your description should provide precisely what you did, and what the car did, leading up to the blowup. "I stopped to get gas and then problem x happend" can save us all a lot of work.

All Supras have diagnostic codes. Check the ECU for them before posting a question. Include any codes you got in your description.

If your post ends up being long (more than about four paragraphs), it might be useful to succinctly state the problem up top, then follow with the chronological tale. That way, people will know what to watch for in reading your account.

Describe the goal, not the step

If you are trying to find out how to do something (as opposed to reporting a problem), begin by describing the goal. Only then describe the particular step towards it that you are blocked on.

Often, people who need technical help have a high-level goal in mind and get stuck on what they think is one particular path towards the goal. They come for help with the step, but don't realize that the path is wrong. It can take substantial effort to get past this.

Stupid:
How do I get enough power to my top fuel dragster sized fuel pump?

Smart:
I want to make 350 RWHP, I have 550 injectors. I'm thinking I need one of these huge 400 liter an hour pumps, how do I get power to it?

The second version of the question is smart. It allows an answer that suggests a tool or part better suited to the task.

Don't ask people to reply by private e-mail

Most of us believe solving problems should be a public, transparent process during which a first try at an answer can and should be corrected if someone more knowledgeable notices that it is incomplete or incorrect. Also, helpers get some of their reward for being respondents from being seen to be competent and knowledgeable by their peers.

When you ask for a private reply, you are disrupting both the process and the reward. Don't do this. It's the respondent's choice whether to reply privately - and if he does, it's usually because he thinks the question is too ill-formed or obvious to be interesting to others.

Be explicit about your question

Open-ended questions tend to be perceived as open-ended time sinks. Those people most likely to be able to give you a useful answer are also the busiest people (if only because they take on the most work themselves). People like that are allergic to open-ended time sinks, thus they tend to be allergic to open-ended questions.

You are more likely to get a useful response if you are explicit about what you want respondents to do (provide pointers, suggest parts, check your install method, whatever). This will focus their effort and implicitly put an upper bound on the time and energy a respondent must allocate to helping you. This is good.

To understand the world the experts live in, think of expertise as an abundant resource and time to respond as a scarce one. The less of a time commitment you implicitly ask for, the more likely you are to get an answer from someone really good and really busy.

So it is useful to frame your question to minimize the time commitment required for an expert to field it - but this is often not the same thing as simplifying the question. Thus, for example, "Would you give me a pointer to a good explanation of turbo A/R's?" is usually a smarter question than "Would you explain turbo A/R's, please?".

Prune pointless queries

Resist the temptation to close your request for help with semantically-null questions like "Can anyone help me?" or "Is there an answer?" First: if you've written your problem description halfway competently, such tacked-on questions are at best superfluous. Second: because they are superfluous, people find them annoying - and are likely to return logically impeccable but dismissive answers like "Yes, you can be helped" and "No, there is no help for you."

In general, asking yes-or-no questions is a good thing to avoid unless you want a yes-or-no answer.

Don't flag your question as "Urgent" or "Need help fast!"

That's your problem, not ours. Claiming urgency is very likely to be counter-productive: most of us will simply ignore such messages as rude and selfish attempts to elicit immediate and special attention. We also might not answer if we missed the problem in the first few minutes. We'll assume that if you didn't get an answer quickly, it's too late now.

If you find this mysterious, re-read the rest of this how-to repeatedly until you understand it before posting anything at all.

Courtesy never hurts, and sometimes helps

Be courteous. Use "Please" and "Thanks for your attention" or "Thanks for your consideration". Make it clear you appreciate the time people spend helping you for free.

To be honest, this isn't as important as (and cannot substitute for) being grammatical, clear, precise and descriptive, etc.; We would all in general would rather get somewhat brusque but technically sharp posts than polite vagueness. (If this puzzles you, remember that we value a question by what it teaches all of us.)

However, if you've got your technical ducks in a row, politeness does increase your chances of getting a useful answer.

Follow up with a brief note on the solution

Post after the problem has been solved; let everyone know how it came out and thank everyone again for their help. I can't stress how important this is.

Your followup doesn't have to be long and involved; a simple "Hey! It was a failed fuel pump! Thanks, everyone. - Bill" would be better than nothing. In fact, a short and sweet summary is better than a long dissertation unless the solution has real technical depth. Say what action solved the problem, but you need not replay the whole troubleshooting sequence.

For problems with some depth, it is appropriate to post a summary of the troubleshooting history. Describe your final problem statement. Describe what worked as a solution, and indicate avoidable blind alleys and wastes of time after that. The blind alleys and wastes of time should come after the correct solution and other summary material, rather than turning the follow-up into a detective story. Name the names of people who helped you; you'll make friends that way.

Besides being courteous and informative, this sort of followup will help others searching the forum to know exactly which solution helped you and thus may also help them.

Last, and not least, this sort of followup helps everybody who assisted feel a satisfying sense of closure about the problem. If you are not a techie or mechanic yourself, trust us that this feeling is very important to the gurus and experts you tapped for help. Problem narratives that trail off into unresolved nothingness are frustrating things; we itch to see them resolved. The goodwill that scratching that itch earns you will be very, very helpful to you next time you need to pose a question.

Consider how you might be able to prevent others from having the same problem in the future. Ask yourself if a sticky or additon to the FAQ would help, and if the answer is yes, ask a mod or admin to stick or copy to the FAQ.

We really like to see this, and this sort of good followup behavior is actually more important than conventional politeness. It's how you get a reputation for playing well with others, which can be a very valuable asset.

RTFM and Search! - or - How To Tell You've Seriously Screwed Up

There is an ancient and hallowed tradition: if you get a reply that reads "RTFM", the person who sent it thinks you should have Read The #### Manual. He or she is almost certainly right. Go read it.

RTFM has a younger relative. If you get a reply that reads Search!, the person who sent it thinks you should have searched the site. He or she is almost certainly right. Go search it. (The milder version of this is when you are told "Google is your friend!" In fact, someone may even be so kind as to provide a pointer to the previous thread where this problem was solved. But do not rely on this consideration; do your searching before asking.

Often, the person telling you to do a search has the manual or the web page with the information you need open, and is looking at it as he or she types. These replies mean that he thinks (a) the information you need is easy to find, and (b) you will learn more if you seek out the information than if you have it spoon-fed to you.

You shouldn't be offended by this; by our standards, your respondent is showing you a rough kind of respect simply by not ignoring you. You should instead be thankful for this grandmotherly kindness.

Sometimes an answer will be "TSRM EM-53" - this means your question is answered in the TSRM in the Engine Mechanical section on page 53" - if you don't have a TSRM buy one. (There are TSRM's online, but we'd rather see you pay for that copyrighted material to encourage our manufacturer to keep printing the manuals.

If you don't understand...

If you don't understand the answer, do not immediately bounce back a demand for clarification. Use the same tools that you used to try and answer your original question (The TSRM, FAQs, the Web, skilled friends) to understand the answer. Then, if you still need to ask for clarification, exhibit what you have learned.

For example, suppose I tell you: "It sounds like you've got a stuck wastegate; you'll need to free it up" Then: here's a bad followup question: "What's a Wastegate?" Here's a good followup question: "OK, I read the manual and page and I found the wastegate, but the the manual doesn't say anything about freeing it up. Am I missing something here?"

Dealing with rudeness

Much of what looks like rudeness in our circles is not intended to give offence. Rather, it's the product of the direct, cut-through-the-bullshit communications style that is natural to people who are more concerned about the tech and solving problems than making others feel good about themselves.

When you perceive rudeness, try to react calmly. If someone is really acting out, it is very likely an admin like me on the forum will call him or her on it. If that doesn't happen and you lose your temper, it is likely that the person you lose it at was behaving within the community's norms and you will be considered at fault. This will hurt your chances of getting the information or help you want.

On the other hand, you will occasionally run across rudeness and posturing that is quite gratuitous. The flip-side of the above is that it is acceptable form to slam real offenders quite hard, dissecting their misbehavior with a sharp verbal scalpel. Be very, very sure of your ground before you try this, however. The line between correcting an incivility and starting a pointless flamewar is thin enough that even moderators and administrators themselves not infrequently blunder across it; if you are a newbie or an outsider, your chances of avoiding such a blunder are low. If you're after information rather than entertainment, it's better to keep your fingers off the keyboard than to risk this. We do ban people for using this as a form of entertainment. Please don't do it.

In the next section, we'll talk about a different issue; the kind of "rudeness" you'll see when you misbehave.

On not reacting like a complete loser.

Odds are you'll screw up a few times on the forum - in ways detailed in this article, or similar. And you'll be told exactly how you screwed up, possibly with colourful asides. In public.

When this happens, the worst thing you can do is whine about the experience, claim to have been verbally assaulted, demand apologies, scream, hold your breath, threaten lawsuits, complain to people's employers, leave the toilet seat up, etc. Instead, here's what you do:

Get over it. It's normal. In fact, it's healthy and appropriate.

Community standards do not maintain themselves: They're maintained by people actively applying them, visibly, in public. Don't whine that all criticism should have been conveyed via private e-mail: That's not how it works. Nor is it useful to insist you've been personally insulted when someone comments that one of your claims was wrong, or that his views differ. We don't have time to teach everyone on a one on one basis. If you get slammed in public, everyone learns from it.

There have been forums where, out of some misguided sense of hyper-courtesy, participants are banned from posting any fault-finding with another's posts, and told "Don't say anything if you're unwilling to help the user." The resulting departure of clueful participants to elsewhere causes them to descend into meaningless babble and become useless as technical forums. That isn't going to happen here. Grow a thicker skin.

Motivations for calling you on your bad behavior

Remember: When that someone tells you that you've screwed up, and (no matter how gruffly) tells you not to do it again, he's acting out of concern for (1) you and (2) his community. It would be much easier for him to ignore you and filter you out of his life. If you can't manage to be grateful, at least have a little dignity, don't whine, and don't expect to be treated like a fragile doll just because you're a newcomer with a theatrically hypersensitive soul and delusions of entitlement. We don't have time for it.

Sometimes people will attack you personally, flame without an apparent reason, etc., even if you don't screw up (or have only screwed up in their imagination). In this case, complaining is the way to really screw up.

These flamers are either idiots who don't have a clue but believe themselves to be experts, or would-be psychologists testing whether you'll screw up. The other readers either ignore them, or find ways to deal with them on their own. The flamers' behavior creates problems for themselves, which don't have to concern you. Trust us, the administrators and moderations staff will handle these people.

Don't let yourself be drawn into a flamewar, either. Most flames are best ignored - after you've checked whether they are really flames, not pointers to the ways in which you have screwed up, and not cleverly ciphered answers to your real question (this happens as well).

Questions Not To Ask

Here are some classic stupid questions, and what we are thinking when we don't answer them.

Q: Where can I find the list of ECU error codes?
A: The same place I'd find it, fool - at the other end of a search. Doesn't everybody know how to use the damned search feature yet?

Q: Where do I find the wiring diagram for the APEXi S-AFCII?
A: If you're smart enough to ask this question, you're smart enough to RTFM and find out yourself.

Q: How can I set my boost controller?
A: If you're smart enough to ask this question, you're smart enough to RTFM and find out yourself.

Q: My car doesn't work
A: This is not a question, and I'm not interested in playing Twenty Questions to pry your actual question out of you - I have better things to do. On seeing something like this, my reaction is normally "Damn, that's too bad, I hope you get it fixed.."

Good and Bad Questions

Finally, I'm going to illustrate how to ask questions in a smart way by example; pairs of questions about the same problem, one asked in a stupid way and one in a smart way.

Stupid: Where can I find out stuff about the HKS SSQV BOV? - (This question just begs for "Search..." as a reply.)
Smart: I used search to try to find out about the HKS SSQV BOV, but I got no useful hits. Can I get a pointer to install information on this BOV?

Stupid: I'm having problems with my car. Can anybody help? - (The average response to this is likely to be "Yes, if you'd tell us what is wrong.."
Smart: I tried X, Y, and Z on on my car. When that didn't work, I tried A, B, and C. Note the curious symptom when I tried C. Obviously the ignition isn't getting power, but the results aren't what one might expect. Anybody got ideas for more tests I can run to pin down the problem?

This person, on the other hand, seems worthy of an answer. He/she has exhibited problem-solving intelligence rather than passively waiting for an answer to drop from on high.

In the last question, notice the subtle but important difference between demanding "Give me an answer" and "Please help me figure out what additional diagnostics I can run to achieve enlightenment."

If You Can't Get An Answer

If you can't get an answer, please don't take it personally that we don't feel we can help you. Sometimes the members of the asked group may simply not know the answer. No response is not the same as being ignored, though admittedly it's hard to spot the difference from outside.

In general, simply re-posting or 'bumping' your question more than once every 24 hours is a bad idea. This will be seen as pointlessly annoying. Have patience: the person with your answer may currently be asleep, in a different time-zone, on vacation, etc.

There are also plenty of commercial companies you can go to for help, both large and small. Don't be dismayed at the idea of having to pay for a bit of help! Mechanics & shops exist for reason.

Participating: How To Answer Questions in a Helpful Way

Be gentle. Problem-related stress can make people seem rude or stupid even when they're not. Sometimes they are just freaked out that this car they have dumped thousands of dollars into is now dumping on them!

If you don't know for sure, say so! A wrong but authoritative-sounding answer is worse than none at all. Don't point anyone down a wrong path simply because it's fun to sound like an expert. Be humble and honest; set a good example for both the querent and your peers. If someone corrects you, accept it with good grace.

If you can't help, don't hinder. Don't make jokes about procedures that could trash the car - the poor sap might interpret these as instructions. I've seen this happen!

Ask probing questions to elicit more details. If you're good at this, the querent will learn something - and so might you. Try to turn the bad question into a good one; remember we were all newbies once.

While just muttering "Search" is sometimes justified when replying to someone who is just a lazy slob, a pointer to documentation (even if it's just a suggestion to search for a specific key phrase) is better.

If you're going to answer the question at all, give good value. Don't suggest crappy workarounds when somebody is using the wrong tool or approach. Suggest good tools, the right parts - Reframe the question.

Help your community learn from the question. When you field a good question, ask yourself "How would the relevant documentation or FAQ have to change so that nobody has to answer this again?" Then contact a mod or admin for a sticky or faq additon.

If you did research to answer the question, demonstrate your skills rather than writing as though you pulled the answer out of your butt. Answering one good question is like feeding a hungry person one meal, but teaching them research skills by example is teaching them to grow food for a lifetime.'


Ik hoop dat dit helpt!



Kwam btw van een supraforum af.

Kortom... als je fatsoenlijk antwoord wilt hebben moet je eerst 3x nadenken voordat de experts je zullen helpen.

Dit bericht is gewijzigd door Thijsse op 15-6-2009 om 16:03 uur.
 
Too cool for school!

Gary - Forum en Gallery Moderator 14-6-2009 21:20 Print reply

Posts: 12846
Quote:
Oorspronkelijk gepost door: Gerard1793
+1


+1 pp.

Quote:
Oorspronkelijk gepost door: Tombrom
zeg dan gewoon helemaal niks slaat nergens op dat +1


Schoolvoorbeelden voor hoe het niet moet. Meldmodden Tom.

Verder lijkt het mij idd verstandig als een hoop mensen de tekst goed doorlezen en alleen hier inhoudelijk op posten.
 
Echte mannen eten geen honing. Echte mannen kauwen bijen.....
Jasper Strahiem 14-6-2009 21:24 Print reply

Posts: 1950
Het allerlaatste blokje is ook belangerijk! Ik zeg er bij dat ik niet alles gelezen heb maar het is wel precies zoals het in de tekst word gezegt.
 
Make the most of now
ikkejw 14-6-2009 21:27 Print reply

Posts: 9886
dit is al vrij oud, en staat op meerdere (engelstalige) forums. ik heb t een paar jaar geleden ook al een keer helemaal doorgelezen, en ben het 100% eens met alles wat er in staat.

maar ik denk niet dat BF veel beter wordt van deze lap tekst, aangezien de gemiddelde 13-jarige VMBO-ert met een ragpoeg weinig zin heeft om een paar meter aan (vrij moeilijke) engelse tekst door te spitten voor ie mag vragen waar z'n bougie zit.


 
Preserve nature - Always wear a helmet
mikeo26 14-6-2009 21:30 Print reply

Posts: 664
ziet er leuk uit, maar ik kan me voorstellen dat iemand die nog niet met een forum on kan gaan, echt geen zin heeft om zo'n lap tekst te lezen.
 
Nu bezig met mh ryz projectje:P
Martijn II - Forum en Sales Moderator 14-6-2009 21:36 Print reply

Posts: 9841
Quote:
Oorspronkelijk gepost door: ikkejw
dit is al vrij oud, en staat op meerdere (engelstalige) forums. ik heb t een paar jaar geleden ook al een keer helemaal doorgelezen, en ben het 100% eens met alles wat er in staat.

maar ik denk niet dat BF veel beter wordt van deze lap tekst, aangezien de gemiddelde 13-jarige VMBO-ert met een ragpoeg weinig zin heeft om een paar meter aan (vrij moeilijke) engelse tekst door te spitten voor ie mag vragen waar z'n bougie zit.




had het toen dan gepost.

vertaling komt er wss aan....die ook wat ingekort is

Maar ik sta op het punt de boel te boycotten hiero, en als ik de rest van de oldskoolers achter me heb staan is bf gauw verleden tijd. Ik wil zelf ook de kwaliteit van BF zo hoog mogelijk houden en als het op die manier even moet klappen dan is het niet anders...maar ik word er echt gestoord van dat mensen hier dingen lopen te verkondigen die gewoon NIET WAAR zijn en doen alsof ze er vanalles van weten. Dat is geen helpen.

De volgende stap is mensen eruitpleuren die niet normaal communiceren. Spelfoutjes kunnen nog, maar als ik een vraag niet begrijp ga ik er toch mooi geen antwoord op geven.

 
Too cool for school!
Thijsse - Forum, Projecten & Gallery Mod 14-6-2009 21:39 Print reply

Posts: 17906
ik ben op het moment bezig met de tekst te vertalen, dus de komende tijd zal de startpost steeds meer Nederlands worden!

daarna ga ik het nog wat inkorten en er een inhoudsopgave bij maken
 
Kaalheid is nudisme op hoog niveau!
Joel_koningslust 14-6-2009 21:42 Print reply

Posts: 14514
Quote:
Oorspronkelijk gepost door: Thijsse
ik ben op het moment bezig met de tekst te vertalen, dus de komende tijd zal de startpost steeds meer Nederlands worden!

daarna ga ik het nog wat inkorten en er een inhoudsopgave bij maken



is het dan niet mogelijk om bij het aanmelden bijv dit stuk erbij komt te staan? zodat ze het iig direct met aanmelden zien. en dan het dan eventueel later nog eens op te zoeken is?
 
This is OPEL country, where on a quiet day you can hear the turbos whistling, the webers barking and the FORDS rusting.
Gerard1793 14-6-2009 21:43 Print reply

Posts: 4005
Quote:
Oorspronkelijk gepost door: Martijn II
[...]


had het toen dan gepost.

vertaling komt er wss aan....die ook wat ingekort is

Maar ik sta op het punt de boel te boycotten hiero, en als ik de rest van de oldskoolers achter me heb staan is bf gauw verleden tijd. Ik wil zelf ook de kwaliteit van BF zo hoog mogelijk houden en als het op die manier even moet klappen dan is het niet anders...maar ik word er echt gestoord van dat mensen hier dingen lopen te verkondigen die gewoon NIET WAAR zijn en doen alsof ze er vanalles van weten. Dat is geen helpen.

De volgende stap is mensen eruitpleuren die niet normaal communiceren. Spelfoutjes kunnen nog, maar als ik een vraag niet begrijp ga ik er toch mooi geen antwoord op geven.


Ik denk niet dat dat veel zin heeft, omdat er toch wel mensen zijn die op alles antwoorden waar ze niets vanaf weten(ik zeg niet dat ik overal vanaf weet), of je moet inderdaad alle "oldskoolers" achter je hebben staan. Ik erger me soms ook kapot aan onbeschoft gedrag.

 
Derbi-Olaf: Als die lieve hondjes die ze altijd op dat toiletpapier printen mijn anus nu eens zouden schoonlikken had ik d'r tenminste wat aan!
Royal Club 14-6-2009 21:48 Print reply

Posts: 60386
Quote:

More generally, if you write like a semi-literate boob you will very likely be ignored. Writing like a l33t script kiddie hax0r or a gangsta from the ghetto is the absolute kiss of death with us and guarantees you will receive nothing but stony silence (or, at best, a heaping helping of scorn and sarcasm) in return.

hele goeie voor op dit forum.

Quote:
RTFM and Search! - or - How To Tell You've Seriously Screwed Up

There is an ancient and hallowed tradition: if you get a reply that reads "RTFM", the person who sent it thinks you should have Read The #### Manual. He or she is almost certainly right. Go read it.

RTFM has a younger relative. If you get a reply that reads Search!, the person who sent it thinks you should have searched the site. He or she is almost certainly right. Go search it. (The milder version of this is when you are told "Google is your friend!" In fact, someone may even be so kind as to provide a pointer to the previous thread where this problem was solved. But do not rely on this consideration; do your searching before asking.

Often, the person telling you to do a search has the manual or the web page with the information you need open, and is looking at it as he or she types. These replies mean that he thinks (a) the information you need is easy to find, and (b) you will learn more if you seek out the information than if you have it spoon-fed to you.

You shouldn't be offended by this; by our standards, your respondent is showing you a rough kind of respect simply by not ignoring you. You should instead be thankful for this grandmotherly kindness.

Sometimes an answer will be "TSRM EM-53" - this means your question is answered in the TSRM in the Engine Mechanical section on page 53" - if you don't have a TSRM buy one. (There are TSRM's online, but we'd rather see you pay for that copyrighted material to encourage our manufacturer to keep printing the manuals.

If you don't understand...

If you don't understand the answer, do not immediately bounce back a demand for clarification. Use the same tools that you used to try and answer your original question (The TSRM, FAQs, the Web, skilled friends) to understand the answer. Then, if you still need to ask for clarification, exhibit what you have learned.

For example, suppose I tell you: "It sounds like you've got a stuck wastegate; you'll need to free it up" Then: here's a bad followup question: "What's a Wastegate?" Here's a good followup question: "OK, I read the manual and page and I found the wastegate, but the the manual doesn't say anything about freeing it up. Am I missing something here?"



Quote:

Questions Not To Ask

Here are some classic stupid questions, and what we are thinking when we don't answer them.

Q: Where can I find the list of ECU error codes?
A: The same place I'd find it, fool - at the other end of a search. Doesn't everybody know how to use the damned search feature yet?

Q: Where do I find the wiring diagram for the APEXi S-AFCII?
A: If you're smart enough to ask this question, you're smart enough to RTFM and find out yourself.

Q: How can I set my boost controller?
A: If you're smart enough to ask this question, you're smart enough to RTFM and find out yourself.

Q: My car doesn't work
A: This is not a question, and I'm not interested in playing Twenty Questions to pry your actual question out of you - I have better things to do. On seeing something like this, my reaction is normally "Damn, that's too bad, I hope you get it fixed.."


ook bekend.
 
anyway, je kunt niet ergens op internet aankomen en meteen gaan lopen kwekken en je beroepen op allerlei rechten enzo. op internet gelden geen rechten
Maup 14-6-2009 21:48 Print reply

Posts: 4353
Quote:
Oorspronkelijk gepost door: Joel_koningslust
[...]



is het dan niet mogelijk om bij het aanmelden bijv dit stuk erbij komt te staan? zodat ze het iig direct met aanmelden zien. en dan het dan eventueel later nog eens op te zoeken is?


Ik denk niet dat het heel veel nut heeft, de forum regels worden ook vaak niet gelezen (heb ik het idee). Wat wel een idee is, is om ze bij de forumregels in dat rijtje linksboven te zetten.
 
Vertrouwen is goed, controle is beter.
Joel_koningslust 14-6-2009 21:49 Print reply

Posts: 14514
btw. wanneer ben je een noobie en wanneer een oldskool user


 
This is OPEL country, where on a quiet day you can hear the turbos whistling, the webers barking and the FORDS rusting.
Tobias Verhoef 14-6-2009 21:50 Print reply

Posts: 1832
je kan ook een functie maken dat mensen mogen beslissen dat ze ook buiten het begin forum mogen posten.

dus bijvoorbeeld:

iemand meld zich aan op bf en in het begin forum helpt hij mensen goed en geeft hen de juiste adviezen en goede tips die mag dan doorstromen zodat hij ook op andere forums mag posten.

een ander meld zich aan en zit de heletijd stom te lullen die komt dan bijv niet uit het begin forum.

is dit niet een handig idee of is het moeilijk om te maken?
 
Nou het is duidelijk je brommer heeft last van olicumiteren impulsieve hyper impulsen heeft een kwardratische....????
Royal Club 14-6-2009 21:51 Print reply

Posts: 60386
Quote:
Oorspronkelijk gepost door: Joel_koningslust
btw. wanneer ben je een noobie en wanneer een oldskool user




onder de 10k als ik me goed kan herinneren?

Quote:
Oorspronkelijk gepost door: Tobias Verhoef
je kan ook een functie maken dat mensen mogen beslissen dat ze ook buiten het begin forum mogen posten.

dus bijvoorbeeld:

iemand meld zich aan op bf en in het begin forum helpt hij mensen goed en geeft hen de juiste adviezen en goede tips die mag dan doorstromen zodat hij ook op andere forums mag posten.

een ander meld zich aan en zit de heletijd stom te lullen die komt dan bijv niet uit het begin forum.

is dit niet een handig idee of is het moeilijk om te maken?


kerel, we hebben elke dag aanmeldingen, dan moet je mensen hebben die die mensen fulltime in de gaten houden, dus ook als ze maar 1x in de week posten, dit is onmogelijk
 
anyway, je kunt niet ergens op internet aankomen en meteen gaan lopen kwekken en je beroepen op allerlei rechten enzo. op internet gelden geen rechten
Tommyofzo 14-6-2009 21:52 Print reply
Posts: 6934
Quote:
Oorspronkelijk gepost door: Joel_koningslust
[...]



is het dan niet mogelijk om bij het aanmelden bijv dit stuk erbij komt te staan? zodat ze het iig direct met aanmelden zien. en dan het dan eventueel later nog eens op te zoeken is?

Kleine kans dat iemand dat ook werkelijk lezen gaat denk ik.


 
Martijn II - Forum en Sales Moderator 14-6-2009 21:52 Print reply

Posts: 9841
Quote:
Oorspronkelijk gepost door: Tobias Verhoef
je kan ook een functie maken dat mensen mogen beslissen dat ze ook buiten het begin forum mogen posten.

dus bijvoorbeeld:

iemand meld zich aan op bf en in het begin forum helpt hij mensen goed en geeft hen de juiste adviezen en goede tips die mag dan doorstromen zodat hij ook op andere forums mag posten.

een ander meld zich aan en zit de heletijd stom te lullen die komt dan bijv niet uit het begin forum.

is dit niet een handig idee of is het moeilijk om te maken?


moeilijk te maken.
daar is ook het beginforum voor geintroduceerd...en dat is al niet helemaal waterdicht.

 
Too cool for school!

Dit topic is 70379 keer bekeken. Log in om te kunnen reageren op dit onderwerp.
Pagina 1 van 22
Spring naar pagina: 1, 2, 3 ... 20, 21, 22Volgende pagina >
 
Copyright © 2000 - 2016 - All rights reserved